The Church of the Saints - Between the Canonization of the Saints and Condemnation!!!

 

The Church of the Saints(9)

Between the Canonization of the Saints and Condemnation!!!

 

Mark: G'day, Thomas! Where have you been mate?

 

Thomas: G'day, Mark. Sorry, mate, needed some time to reflect on the stuff we discussed.

 

Mark:  Fair enough. I hope all is settled now?

 

Thomas: Yep, all good. Just got this nagging question that’s plaguing my mind. Mind if we talk about it?

 

Mark: Sure! Is it about the intercession of the saints as well?

 

Thomas:  Not exactly. It's about why the church issues canonization according to its laws to declare someone as a saint.

 

Mark:  Okay. What's your question?

 

Thomas:  Well, when the church declares someone a saint, isn't that a form of condemnation? Isn't it against the verse that says, "Judge not, that you be not judged"? Condemnation is from the Lord, right? And Paul the Apostle said, "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts" (1 Cor 4:5). How can we then say someone is a saint or not?

 

Mark: Wow...You went too far this time my friend! 😊

 

Thomas: Sorry, mate. Take it easy on me!

 

Mark: No worries, mate. So, you're saying the church shouldn't declare saints because it goes against the verse "Judge not, that you be not judged." And you think when Paul the Apostle said "until the Lord comes," he meant the last day, right?

 

Thomas: Exactly.

 

Mark: Alright, bro. Let me grab a hot one, and we'll go through it step by step. Let's start with the last point you mentioned, the one about Paul defending his apostleship in that chapter. Due to the Corinthian church's divisions and their allegiance to different leaders like Paul, Apollos, Cephas, and Christ, Paul start talking about the judgment of his stewardship of the mysteries of God. Now logically, before looking at any evidence, the Apostle couldn't have postponed judgment on his preaching until the last coming, or else why preach at all? And how could he expect believers to stand firm in his preaching? How could he expect non-believers to accept it in the first place? How does this align with his statement that his preaching is with a demonstration of the Spirit and power? And with his warning to the churches not to accept any gospel even from him or angels if it differs from what he had preached before... It's like Paul is telling them to follow him blindly, and no one should judge or condemn him until the Lord's judgment on the Day of Resurrection. Does that make sense?

 

Thomas: I agree. It's not really adding up. But I'm still lost, mate. Wasn't it Paul the Apostle who said all that?

 

Mark:  We also have plenty of evidence for present judgments, not waiting for the second coming, especially from Paul the Apostle himself! For instance, these are the evidences for judgment and condemnation:

 

-        Some people's sins are evident, preceding them to judgment (1 Tim 5:24).

-        You judge those who are inside... (1 Cor 5:12).

-        So expel the wicked person from among you (1 Cor 5:13).

 

As for the judgments of righteousness, we have present evidence as well:

 

-        For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by people (Rom 14:18).

-        The brother who is praised in the gospel among all the churches (2 Cor 8:18).

-        Apollos, the one who is approved in Christ (Rom 16:10).

 

So, Paul the Apostle praised some and called for the condemnation of others within the present time, not the last day. This is his perspective on the current situation, not the Second Coming. Does that clarify things?

 

Thomas: I'm not getting it. So, he condemns others? And he condemns them in the present time? What did he mean by saying "the day of the Lord will come"?

 

Mark: Of course, he condemns, and he also calls on the Church to condemn (in a specific context that aligns with the Spirit of the Gospel). All the judgments that Paul the Apostle mentioned, whether positive or negative, were in the light of God's revelation of the hidden things. When he said "the Lord will come," he didn't mean the last day but the revelation of God's will or the Lord's manifestation of the matter. In simple terms, the Apostle asks the church audience to be patient in judgment, awaiting the enlightenment of the Lord to what is hidden from them. It's the same as what God Himself says: "Do not judge according to appearance but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

 

Thomas: So, isn't this against Christ's command, "Judge not, that you be not judged"?

 

Mark: If we go into this, we'll deviate from our main topic, which is the declaration of saints. But no worries, mate. Before we talk about judgment, let me clarify that we explained Paul the Apostle's intention in saying "Judge not... until the Lord comes," and we provided many examples, from Paul himself, of calling for the condemnation of some and the approval of others in the present time (not the last day). I believe that answers the fundamental question you started with in this conversation. However, if it's necessary, let's delve into the concept of judgment more precisely to avoid confusion. Shall we read the verse "Judge not..." thoroughly? Maybe the Lord's enlightenment will come down on us and guide us 😊

 

Thomas: Sure. "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

 

Mark: Go on.

 

Thomas: "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" (Matt 7:1-5).

 

Mark: That’s it. Nothing more need to be said! Did you see the completeness of the text? It's fantastic! Instead of taking verses out of context and creating slogans that go against the original meaning.

 

Thomas: So, are you saying that the commandment was originally against judgment based on hypocrisy, not judgment in general?

 

Mark: Of course. Christ was objecting to the hypocrites who complained about the speck in their brother's eye while having a plank in their own. He condemns unjust judgment. Otherwise, how does the Bible say that saints will judge the world? And how does Paul ask the church to judge and isolate the wicked?

 

Thomas:  Okay, but in John 8, in the story of the woman caught in adultery, didn't Christ say to the Pharisees, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone"?

 

Mark: Let me answer your question with a question. When the Law established the stoning regulation, didn't it recognize that people are not sinless? Why did it include such a provision?

 

Thomas: I don't know. But aren't we now under grace of the New Testament?

 

Mark: Well, the words of Christ in that context were about applying the legal judgment with fair public testimony leading to execution. It's clear that the meanings are different.

 

Thomas: But Christ did not condemn the woman in the end?

 

Mark: I disagree with you. Christ didn't condemn the woman judicially. He addressed her with the intent of removing sin from her life when he said, "Go and sin no more." He forgave her without violating the law judicially, as stoning required witnesses to throw the first stones.

 

Thomas: This is the first time I understand the story of the adulterous woman and the concept of "judgment" in this way. Honestly, the word "judgment" weighs heavily on my heart.

 

Mark: That's because we focus on rejecting judgment rooted in hypocrisy or personal bias, which leads us towards self-righteousness. If we distort the commandment, saints might sin when judging the world, and Paul would be wrong in blaming the church for failing to judge and isolate the wicked. Some prefer to use synonyms like "discernment or distinction" to differentiate it from false judgment. Words don't matter as much as the intended meaning.

 

Thomas: Fair enough, mate. I don't think there's anything else to be said on this matter. I believe we'll continue our discussion on another day because I still have questions about celebrating saints' feast days, icons, incense, etc. I'd like us to discuss them together.

 

Mark: All right, mate. It looks like it will be a series of discussions, not just one session. But hey, you might bring some tea next time!

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