The Church of the Saints - Do the Dead intercede for the living?

The Church of the Saints (6)

Do the Dead intercede for the living?

 

Thomas: You don't know how passionate I am about this discussion with you this time…

 

 Mark: Why? 😊

 

Thomas: Because honestly, I see a clear violation of the commandments of the Holy Scriptures when we seek the intercession of the departed (the ugliest term: the dead). "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." (Deuteronomy 18:10-11) It's from several verses….That and I also enjoy tea 😄Also, And how many verses do we rely on when we say we shouldn't talk to the dead, and then we ask for their intercession? 

 

Mark:  You're right. This is always a problem of taking verses out of context and not understanding the command and its purpose. The result is (first) reaching a result contrary to the intention of the commandment. And (second) falling into the trap of contradiction, even if it's implicit. In our case, this contradiction implies a denial of the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of all believers.

 

Thomas: Oh, dear Lord! Denying the resurrection once? What does that have to do with this?

 

Mark:  Look, I'll give you a brief answer, and then we can explain it in detail at our leisure. The commandment here was in the Old Covenant when the dead went to Sheol... there was no resurrection, no open heavenly paradise. So, consulting the dead was like consulting the underworld after passing through Satan. But in the New Covenant, there is a resurrection, and Christ has announced a heavenly paradise. It's as if those who see this commandment from the Old Covenant still apply to the inhabitants of paradise, not realizing the difference between hell and heavenly paradise. It's as if they don't see the difference between being imprisoned in the abyss with hope and dwelling in paradise with the Lord. It's as if, overall, they don't see the difference between the state of believers in the Old Covenant before Christ and after Christ in the New Covenant. In simple terms, and despite the difficulty of the phrase, I say: it's as if they don't give Christ any credit — God forbid.

 

Thomas: What a long talk! Let's take it step by step, starting from the beginning, please.

 

Mark: Of course. Let's take it step by step. I just wanted to give you a summary of the answer before we go into all the details.

 

Thomas: Alright.

 

Mark: Let's start our discussion with our usual question: "Why?" Why did the Old Testament command not to consult the dead? If we follow the context of the commandment, we can understand the reason, the purpose, and the surrounding circumstances. Let's see the verse you mentioned: "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." (Deuteronomy 18:10-11) This command combines consulting the dead with divination, witchcraft, and seeking guidance from spirits. If we look at the surrounding verses, the connection between consulting the dead and dealing with Satan becomes clear. Read with me.

"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices, the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you." (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

 

All the references speak about direct worship of Satan, offering human sacrifices, seeking guidance from diviners, witches, mediums, and spirits. Does that clarify it?

 

Thomas:  You're right. It was clear in the story of Saul when he went to the medium to summon the spirit of the prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 28:5-14), and his request was straightforward, asking her to summon the spirit of Samuel.

 

Mark: Exactly. So, we agreed that the first reason is the way consulting the dead was done in the Old Covenant, closer to the practices of pagan worship and strange religions.

 

Thomas:  That's true. It was evident in the time when pagan worship spread, consulting the dead was done in sessions resembling those of spirit mediums, with the presence of a sorcerer, medium, and a spirit. This is obviously far from Christian teachings.

 

Mark: Now, the second reason, which is the most important in our case, is the fact that all the departed in the Old Covenant were in Sheol, overseen by Satan. Let's go back to the story of Adam's fall and contemplate the spiritual sequence of events:

• Knowledge of the serpent and accepting its temptation as a source of knowledge led to death.
• Man's death by following the serpent was a defeat for humanity.
• Whatever one submits to becomes his master.

 

So, the result of all this is that humanity, in death, is imprisoned in Sheol and enslaved to the one to whom it submitted.

 

Thomas: Alright. I understand. This explains the connection between consulting the dead and seeking knowledge from Satan. Because after the fall, humanity became imprisoned in Sheol after submitting to Satan.

 

Mark: Exactly. And this explains the verses in Psalms that talk about Sheol. Let's mention a few examples:

·        "O Lord, you brought me up from the realm of the dead; you spared me from going down to the pit... To you, Lord, I called; to the Lord I cried for mercy: 'What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?'" (Psalm 30:3,9)

·        "Can the dead praise you? Can they proclaim your faithfulness? Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction?" (Psalm 88:10-12)

·        "Hurry, answer me, Lord! My spirit fails! Don't hide your face from me, or I will be like those who go down to the pit." (Psalm 143:7)

·        "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

·        "For there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

The common theme in the previous verses is the abyss (or pit or prison), where Satan is imprisoned as if he were a supervisor, acting like a jailer, preventing any praise or gratitude to the Lord. Thus, those imprisoned in the underworld have nothing but the hope they clung to while waiting for the Lord. Are you following me so far?

Thomas: Yes,yes.Keep Going.

Mark: Let's now see how the picture changes in the New Covenant:

·        "He ascended on high, leading a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." Now, the phrase 'he ascended,' what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions of the earth? (Ephesians 4:8-9)

·        "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water." (1 Peter 3:18-20)

In simple terms, in the Old Covenant, the dead were imprisoned in the hands of Satan, and consulting them necessarily meant passing through Satan first. This is the clear reason for prohibiting consultation with the dead. The entire context of the scripture indicates that the prohibition on consulting the dead is rooted in the background of the dead being held captive by Satan before redemption.

Therefore, it's logical, based on faith in the work of the Lord on the cross, that when these 'dead' are freed from their captivity in the underworld and their dwelling becomes paradise with Christ, it opens the door for us to have a sacred relationship with them through intercession, prayer, and assistance. Do you see how the same prohibition that ends consulting the dead in the Old Covenant carries the same recommendation to deal with the righteous departed in the New Covenant?

Thomas:  So, if we want to draw a parallel to clarify the picture, let's say I have a son whose friend lives in a dark and unsafe street full of thieves. I forbid my son from visiting his friend there. However, when the friend moves to a well-lit and safe street, I would allow my son to visit him without hesitation.

Mark: That's a great analogy. Let's use that analogy. Your son's friend represents the departed, and the dark street symbolizes the underworld or hell, with the thieves representing the demons at the gates of hell. As for the well-lit and safe street, it represents paradise. Now, if we consider death as the bus that took your son's friend to the dark street to live there, throughout the Old Covenant, the bus would take your son's friend to the unsafe street. But in the New Covenant, after the redemption by Christ on the cross, the bus now heads to the well-lit and safe street.

Thomas:  Got it. I understand your point. But don't you think this interpretation contradicts the biblical principle that the commandments are valid for all times and places, and that the entire scripture is beneficial for teaching and reproof? It seems like you're selectively discarding certain commandments from the Old Covenant, claiming they are not valid in the New Covenant.

Mark: Trust me, the mistake is trying to fix one misinterpretation with a greater misinterpretation. Take a deep breath and focus with me on what's coming. And please, don't take my words as a personal attack on you. I'm taking this opportunity to address the constant confusion regarding the validity of the Law. We must understand very clearly that the commandments are sacred and will remain so, not a single dot or letter will be removed from them as the promise of the Lord. They are indeed sacred and will remain so, but in what sense?

·        In the sense that they bear witness to the work of Christ's redemption, bringing the dead from where it was impossible for them and us to communicate, with their dwelling being the darkness of Satan and his abyss.

·        In the sense of understanding their wisdom and purpose, namely, to avoid any consultation or interaction with Satan, and to remain in the circle of the Lord's counsel without mixing or even resembling Satan's counsel

And logically, if the condition of the dead changes between the Old and New Covenants, the validity of the commandments related to them will also vary between the two covenants. When we understand the reason and purpose of the commandment and grasp its goal, we can live the spirit of the commandment, making it come alive within us as a witness to the Lord's work. Let's apply this reasoning/

With the Lord's resurrection from the dead, the liberation of the captives in Hades, and the annulment of the law of death, it becomes entirely natural that the commandments related to death also change, becoming only a witness to the Lord's work and a warning against returning to the state of the Old Covenant and the dominion of death.

But to remain as a separate commandment from its cause (separation from Satan) and its goal (discipline and preparation for the resurrection) and effective with its exact wording cut from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant? That's like insisting on the continuation of the commandment 'curse your enemies in the kingdom of heaven.'

And sorry for the long explanation. Let me present another perspective to confirm the meaning. In the New Covenant, at the moment of Christ's crucifixion and death in the flesh, the path to heaven (the well-lit street, according to your analogy) was opened for the first time. This is evident in the Lord's words: 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.' It had never been said by a dead person before; it was only said after Christ. Also, when he said to the thief on the right, 'Today you will be with me in paradise,' we heard it for the first time from Stephen the martyr when he said, 'I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God,' and he also said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' Before that, everyone went either downwards or to Hades.

So, if the path with the 'dead' is in the flesh but alive in the spirit, a certainty with the Lord (not just hope as in the Old Covenant but with him in paradise), then it does not align with my understanding that it would be a contradiction to the work of the Lord if we enact this specific commandment from the Old Covenant while nullifying the Law for the living regarding death and the dead?

Thomas: That makes sense. I didn't quite grasp why there was a commandment not to consult the dead. When you connected various verses together with concise explanations, it clarified the intended meaning and the purpose of the commandment. I was puzzled at first when you said that the misunderstanding could lead to denial of redemption, but now I understand your point.

Nark: Mate, believe me, this implicit rowing this time means denying redemption and resurrection as I explained. As Christians, we not only accepted redemption (it's not just about believing in it), but we live the resurrection (not just believing in it). And because we live the resurrection, we connect with its outcomes and deeds, including the Church - all churches - in the entire universe. If the command is to pray for each other, we not only exclude the departed but rather present them. The command of the Old Covenant, which was limited to the purpose of the Old Covenant, does not hinder us. But now, Christ nullifies it by fulfilling it.

Thomas: Thanks a bunch, brother. Today's session was long, but it was fruitful and full of substantial discussions that I need to ponder on before we continue our talk about intercession. I'll catch up with you tomorrow to continue our conversation... and I'll bring some tea with me! 😊

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